Who by conference

on the subject of 'Western Buddhism' / 'American Buddhism' and the 'Network of Western Buddhist Teachers'. The interview, in a shorter form, was previous published in 'vision magazine' in July 1999. This full-length interview has been edited - both abridged and augmented, at the request of Damtsig. Editing was carried out through further personal interview - in order both to provide greater detail, and to address the wider Buddhist audience. In order to simplify the text only Ngakma Shardröl Wangmo has been identified as a questioner - as she relates information specific to her attendance of the 'Conference of Western Buddhist Teachers' mentioned in the discussion.

Q Rinpoche, Khandro Déchen thank you for your openness and willingness to speak with us about a depressing subject such as this. Your wish, we all know-as well as the wish of all of us here-would be that you taught on the subject of Vajrayana. This is the dearest thing to our hearts-but maybe as this seems to be a pressing matter we could request some clarification.

Q The ordained sangha often find themselves having to answer difficult question during the 'Question & Answer Sessions' on Open Teaching Retreats, and so whilst we are all together, we would like to ask you to comment on a particular phenomenon of the last ten years - the 'Network of Western Buddhist Teachers'. Now . . . you are Western Buddhist Teachers - but you are not part of the Western Buddhist movement, or the 'Network of Western Buddhist Teachers' - was that a choice you made at some point?

Ngak'chang Rinpoche No. . . . actually, to be fair, it was not a choice. . . . although it would soon have become the choice we had to make.

Khandro Déchen Rinpoche and I were simply not accepted in our request for membership. We did think that this was a pity at the time, because we were keen to relate with a peer group-as Western teachers with western students. But now we are glad not to have been accepted.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche Yes. Had we been accepted, we would have had to have resigned on discovery of their recalcitrant anti vajra master agenda. Either that . . . or we would have had our membership rescinded in short order, as we are entirely and unreservedly opposed, to what I will have to describe as 'heresy'. It is not that we are not open to discussion with people who have alternative views - but my experience of the 'Conference of Western Buddhist Teachers' in Dharamsala in 1994 was that those who did not toe the party line were effectively marginalized. If it had only been the miscreant Ngakpa Chögyam who was marginalized I would not be so sure of what I am saying - but several other were marginalized - and they were all people who upheld the rôle of the vajra master.

Q People seem to be a bit upset when the words heretic and heresy are used - do you think you could say something about that?

Ngak'chang Rinpoche [laughs] I know that heresy is not a popular word - it's not exactly part of the 'feel good an any cost' philosophy of our times. However it is the nearest word we have to describe what is happening in terms of 'Western Buddhism' and 'American Buddhism'. I think we have to look at what this words means. The word heresy has a Greek root-hairesis-which means - a choosing from. That is to say - one has a group of interrelated, interactive, and interdependent spiritual coefficients - and one chooses from amongst them, and thereby damaging the whole. If one takes the example of an automobile for example one could choose to take out the spark plugs. That would constitute what is meant by a choosing from, and the result of the choosing from would be that the automobile would not function as an automobile. Heresy doesn't just mean a different translation, a different interpretation, a different approach, a different angle, or a different way of following the teachings. We are not averse to differences of style or differences of approach. We are not averse to changes occurring - because the outer form of Dharma will change, simply because it is a form. Form changes. We have no argument with that at all. The outer form of Dharma has changed over the last several thousand years according to the many realised masters who have given their individual transmission of Dharma. There is a difference between 'change' and 'heresy' - and we must come to an understanding of that. We are not traditionalists in the sense of adhering to historical and cultural precedent for its own sake - that much must be obvious to anyone who reads our books. If one looks at the history of Buddhism one can see that throughout its many changes - it has remained the same. The outer form has changed - but the essence has remained unchanged. So the meaning of 'heresy', as we are using the word, concerns changes to the central essential definition of Dharma. The vajra master is both central and essential to Vajrayana.

Q One could therefore have Vajrayana without brocade, or without chanting - but one could not have Vajrayana without the vajra master and vajra commitment.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche Quite - unless chanting was associated with the practice of a gTérma. But to take your idea further - one could say, for example - that one could have water in many different forms. There could be tap water, spring water, mineral water, sparkling water, and filtered water ad nauseum - but if someone is offering water in powder form or pellet form, it would not be water - by definition. It may well have all the trace elements which could be found in water - but without the water, you would have to add water in order for it to become water. Vajrayana without the vajra master is an oxymoron - unless one has outlandishly insufficient comprehension of Vajrayana. The problem with the word 'heresy' is that people start imagining 'witch hunts' and the persecution of people who are merely different. Beyond the emotive implications of the word 'heresy' however, there exists a real question of the evident distorting of Dharma to fit modern ideas of psychotherapy and political correctness. We are not talking about traditional versus untraditional, or orthodox versus non-orthodox. These things are nothing to worry about, and any way - we would be the last people who could possible make a fuss about divergent styles. We do, however, make a fuss about the instigation of distorted definitions of Dharma.

Q In Britain we have a law which is called the 'Trades Descriptions Act' under which people can be prosecuted for giving misleading information about their products. This is why one is no longer allowed to advertise cigarettes with claims concerning their healthy qualities. You have to be reasonably truthful about your product.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche Yes - and a medical heretic by this definition, is a doctor who claims that tobacco is a beneficial herb when it incinerated fumes are frequently inhaled. A doctor may freely state that cigarettes provide a nicotine experience which is sensually enjoyable to many - it is not medically heretical for a doctor to make that statement, because it is a factual statement. This . . . is all I have to say, and all that really needs to be said, about the validity of the word heresy in this case of a 'Buddhist teacher' stating that the vajra master is dispensable. What were we talking about [laughs] . . .

Q You had been commenting on the 1994 'Conference of Western Buddhist Teachers' Rinpoche . . .

Ngak'chang Rinpoche Ah yes, the conference. I went there hoping to make friends, to find a peer group . . .

Khandro Déchen We thought, at the time-back in 1994-how valuable it would be, to have a peer group. We still feel that way. The 'Network of Western Buddhist Teachers' however, did not turn out to be a feasible peer group for us. Far from it . . .

Ngak'chang Rinpoche Quite - it turned out to be something, perhaps more like a political lobby - or a pressure group. That may sound a trifle declamatory, and we will probably upset people in saying this-but it is true, and so there is no purpose in dissembling. There was an evident political agenda - and there were 'prime movers' who made certain that the conference attendees did not deviate from the agenda. That was my direct experience. There was evident pressure for concordance with that agenda amongst the major spokespersons. The agenda against the vajra master (the Lama, Vajrayana teacher, or tantric guru) was there from the start, and Ngakma Shardröl and I discovered it on the first day. From the outset, it was made clear, in the most indistinct smiling manner, that the spirit of the conference was one of evolving legislation concerning the vajra master and vajra commitment. It was apparently taken for granted that a certain Tibetan mahasiddha of the previous century was 'the antichrist', and that he had done great damage to Buddhism through his teachings with regard to the vajra master. This however, was always insinuated - it was never honestly and forthrightly stated. But knowing glances were exchanged if his name was ever mentioned in any respectful context. Private conversations abounded on the subject, and changed direction should anyone appear who was not recognised as being within the accepted anti vajra master cotérie. It was not by any means an open handed honest situation as far as the prime movers were concerned. I must say now, that not everyone there was involved in pushing the party line. There were a number of straightforward and even handed people there - but the tone of the conference had been set and the tendency to go along with those who were shaping the event was difficult to resist. I must plead guilty here, for not being more vocal at the time. Had I realised that I was witnessing a concerted effort to undermine the vajra master which would continue and escalate - I would have had no choice but to have been more challenging.

Q (Ngakma Shardröl) One of the ideas which seemed to be beyond debate was that the enlightened Lamas of the past such as Padmasambhava & Yeshé Tsogyel don't exist today, and so no one can do anything extraordinary anymore - or act in any way that might not please people.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche Yes . . . that was the gist of it. The Twenty-five Male Siddhas of Chhimphu, the Twenty-two Female Siddhas, Tilopa, Naropa, Marpa, Milarépa and the many other masters such as Drukpa Künlegs, and DoKhyentsé Yeshé Dorje . . . all these masters were 'of the past' and no such masters existed today. That was the premise on which all discussion was founded.

Q (Ngakma Shardröl) It was stated in such a way as to be beyond discussion - and irritation was apparent if anyone challenged the position - as if to say: "We've been through that and, we've agreed that there are no enlightened masters - you have no cause and no right to throw our group discussion into disarray by bringing up this proven fallacy. By doing so you are attempting to undermine the serious nature of our discussion."

Ngak'chang Rinpoche Yes. Ngakma Shardröl took issue with the premise - but was ridiculed for her pains. She was not ordained at that time, and because no one had heard of her - no one took her seriously.

Q (Ngakma Shardröl) So they just repeated the message: "We no longer have enlightened masters - and because of this, the behaviour of the vajra master can no longer reflect the style of those masters of the past." Rinpoche said that he could not accept that statement because to do so would be to deny his own experience of his Lamas - but they ignored him. We were informed at this point, that the idea (that there were no enlightened masters any more) had some sort of sanction from 'on high' - and that because of this, the subject was not up for discussion. It was a conclusive fact. There were no Naropas or Tilopas alive today and that was that.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche Yes . . . So I said: "Nevertheless - I wish to go ion record as maintaining the contrary." . . . and left it at that. We were never presented with the exact nature of this obscure pronunciamento with regard to the current absence of enlightened masters, and it did not seem possible to persist in terms of obtaining direct information on the subject. Those few representatives of Tibetan Lamas who were present, decided to retain a noble silence on this subject. These few took no further direct issue with what was said - and this silent minority have never been heard of again in connection with the 'Network of Western Buddhist Teachers'. They-like us-were not of one mind with the core collective. It was patent that a peer group was available, but only to those who agreed with the agenda - concerning which there was no room for discussion. This was evidently not a venue in which creative open ended discussion could take place with regard to a multiplicity of views and approaches. It is extremely important that I make that clear - because we have been criticised for being narrow-minded on this subject

Khandro Déchen It is often asserted that criticisms such as ours, represent a refusal to allow diversity. The objection is that we are aggressively demanding that 'ours is the only way.'

Ngak'chang Rinpoche yes . . . and this is somewhat ironic in view of the atmosphere of the conference which Shardröl and I attended. What we found at the 'Conference of Western Buddhist Teachers', was a rigorous party line, upheld by those who demanded that theirs was the only way. This demand was not maintained in a forthright honest manner - but largely through concerted lack of interest in any other view than that which was pre-ordained by a pre-existing group of associates. Khandro Déchen and I are being direct and open handed in what we say - and this is the main reason why some people are offended by it. We are not hiding behind soft, gentle, placatory oratory. This is why it was not possible to be part of this peer group - even as polite, and courteous gainsayers.

Khandro Déchen Rinpoche went to the conference with a presentation to offer before His Holiness the Dala'i Lama. We had written the presentation together - extremely carefully. Rinpoche practised reading it every day so that he would be fluent. The presentation had been edited so that it took only five minutes to read - and he had practised it with me on sufficient occasions to be sure of that.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche This presentation was a brief outline of our work in the west with regard to the establishment of the gö kar chang lo'i dé - but it was found by the organisers, that there was no time in our week with His Holiness the Dala'i Lama at which it could be presented. There were an assortment of other presentations - most of which took twenty minutes to a half hour - and most of which could have been trimmed by some minutes, even with the most charitable view. However . . . I accepted that it was not possible. This would not have been worthy of comment, but for the fact that a speaker from Switzerland was allowed to give an un-programmed twenty minute presentation on the psychological value of masturbation for those with poor self-value. The speaker was allowed to interrupt the programme, it would appear - merely because he was 'deeply troubled' by the fact that His Holiness the Dala'i Lama had mentioned in passing that masturbation was inappropriate behaviour for monastics. The central theme of his argument in favour of masturbation was that people could misunderstand His Holiness the Dala'i Lama to be making a pronouncement that masturbation was negative per se. So . . . in this supposed conference on the subject of Buddhism in the west - masturbation was given a twenty minute airing and the subject of our work in establishing the gö-kar chang-lo'i dé was not deemed worthy of five minutes . . . Not that we have any great issue with masturbation [laughs] but those who accuse us of intolerance - would do well to consider this story, because it is merely one story in an anthology of Western Buddhist authoritarianism. Quite apart from this, there was almost no one present at the conference who would actually admit to being a teacher. No one would admit to having students either - they were all noticeably 'humble' in that respect. But now, five years or so down the road - this would appear not to be exactly the case. We are now faced by a group who are not at all shy about wishing to exert their direct influence - and to be shapers of 'The Buddhism of the Future'. So, as I say - we found no peer group there.

Khandro Déchen No - but fortunately we have since found a peer group with two wonderful Western Lamas - Traktung Rinpoche and A'dzom Rinpoche.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche Traktung Rinpoche is the Mind Incarnation of DoKhyentsé Yeshé Dorje and A'dzom Rinpoche is the incarnation of Khandro Shardröl Rinchen Wangmo - who was the incarnation of the sister of DoKhyentsé Yeshé Dorje - Khandro Losèl Drölma. They are both amazing and delightful and knowing them is the most important part of our lives after our relationship with our own Root Lamas.

Q You do have Tibetan friends though and friends who are Tibetan Lamas.

Khandro Déchen Yes - We have always had Tibetan friends - but strangely enough, until we met Traktung Rinpoche and A'dzom Rinpoche we had no sense of 'peer group' at all - at least not one with whom we could discuss things from the basis of a shared formative culture. Maybe there will be other Western Lamas in the future whom we shall also come to know. There are certainly several wonderful people with whom we have been communicating on the subject at hand - but we have not yet met in person.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche I should say, with regard to the Conference, that there were several warm and friendly people there too. There was a marvellous Theravadin monk - the venerable Thanavaro. A most excellent man and evidently a dedicated practitioner. When Ngakma Shardröl was ridiculed for her enthusiasm for the vajra master as a person beyond normal frames of reference - it was venerable Thanavaro who took it upon himself to speak privately with her.

Q (Ngakma Shardröl) Yes - he said I'd been bitten by the Dharma crocodile. He was really kind, generous, and supportive of my position and said that it was sometimes hard for people to understand the rôle of the teacher. He said his teacher was much like a vajra master - even though he was not so familiar with the word.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche Yes - he seemed to be more of a natural tantrika as a Theravadin monk than many of those who claimed experience of Vajrayana. Someone at some early point in the conference decided that it would be good to have periods of silence interspersed between all the talk. It was interesting to see who voted for that - and who did not. However - it was decided that the venerable Thanavaro should dictate when the silences should occur - and he was given a set of tingshar to assist him in his rôle. He was a sheer delight in his rôle. He did not take advantage of his rôle by striking the tingshar too often - but whenever he chose to strike them, it always seemed the perfect point at which to cause the most frustration with regard to those who wanted to dominate the talking. The silences always seemed to last just a little bit too long for some - but there was nothing that anyone could say. The venerable Thanavaro - was beyond reproach; and, he was simply carrying out the wishes of the group. A perfect example of skilful means. It was a joy to have him at the conference.

I would like at this point, to address the question of whether Khandro Déchen and myself are Western Buddhist Teachers. This could be an interesting question; because, we are Western, and we are Buddhists, and we are also teachers - but that does not mean that we are 'Western Buddhist Teachers'. We are not teachers of 'Western Buddhism'. We are not part of a new movement. We are not part of something called 'Western Buddhism' - that was the choice we made, and we made that choice as soon as it became apparent that the 'Network of Western Buddhist Teachers' was not a peer group of teachers who just happened to be western - but a movement with a particular political philosophy. This is probably the reason why we were not accepted - and why we should not have made an application for membership. Our approach was so radically different on such core issues - that there was no way in which they would have been sensible in welcoming us. We have no quarrel with having been rejected - it was the correct decision on whosever's part it was. I mean . . . why allow Genghis Khan admission to the Peace Corps? Why invite a cannibal to a vegetarian picnic?

Q (Ngakma Shardröl) It was a bit like that. We were definitely outsiders. Rinpoche pointed out at one point that the way they were asking questions of His Holiness the Dala'i Lama seemed a bit suspect [interrupted]

Ngak'chang Rinpoche [laughs] I think I was a tiny little bit more tactful than that. It was something I had noticed, and it was one of the few times I felt I had to say something. We had been engaged in a highly formalised process of generating questions to ask of His Holiness the Dala'i Lama, and it struck me as being an increasingly incomprehensible procedure. I simply could not understand why we were asking these questions - well . . . that's not true actually. I had a fairly shrewd idea, so I said: "I have a question which has been troubling me for a day of two now. I am finding that I cannot understand why we are asking these questions of His Holiness the Dala'i Lama. It strikes me that we, as teachers of what ever order, should know the answers to these questions. I feel that we all have our own answers to these questions and that we may simply be attempting to obtain a seal of approval concerning what we already hold to be true. If this is the case, then I feel we should be open about what we are doing."

Q What did they say to that?

Q (Ngakma Shardröl) The room went silent and the subject changed. That was it. I think that those who understood what Rinpoche had said and agreed - simply sat there, and those who understood and were embarrassed about being discovered changed the subject rather than risk having the whole group look too carefully into at what they were doing. Basically it was too embarrassing to deal with, and so it was shelved. I think those who disagreed with the purpose of the conference just became observers at that point.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche We certainly did. I continued to attempt to mention the gö-kar chang-lo'i dé when ever the question of sangha arose - and was almost-politely ignored.

Q (Ngakma Shardröl) There were a few 'not him again with that subject' expressions on some people's faces - but that was about it.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche It was my duty to say something - so I simply called them out whenever they used the word 'lay' inappropriately regarding the gö-kar chang-lo'i dé. I explained that the word 'lay' meant amateur, non-professional, secular, and 'not of the clergy'. I explained also that this definition was consistent in both British and American English according to several dictionaries. I amplified this point by saying that we had conducted research to the effect that this was also the case in German, Finnish, Swedish, Dutch, Spanish, and Italian. I concluded that the word 'lay' appeared only to be used by Buddhists in the West to mean 'non-celibate'. I even brought their attention to the fact that if we were to be 'politically correct' we should try to be aware that it would be a statement of prejudice against other religions who use this word 'lay' to mean 'non-celibate'. A fuss was made at one point about the importance of using the term 'people of colour' rather than other classification for non Caucasians, and I ventured, in similar vein, that 'non-celibate' is the best word for 'non-celibate'.

Q How can one describe His Holiness Düd'jom Rinpoche as a 'lay tantrika' as I have seen him described. According to the dictionaries, this means 'an amateur tantrika', 'a non-professional tantrika' or 'a tantrika who is not of the clergy'. This would be farcical - to put it mildly.

Q (Ngakma Shardröl) There was then a little head nodding and a few sheepish grins, after which they went back to using the word 'lay' in exactly the same way as they had done before, when they talked about the gö-kar chang-lo'i dé. After a few days of the conference after bringing this topics several times Rinpoche said that he would like to tell everyone that he had given up and accepted that the conference were disinterested in the gö-kar chang-lo'i dé, or in according any attention to the matters he had brought up around the use of the word lay - and that they would no longer have to hear from him on the subject. This caused a little embarrassment in which the organisers half heartedly attempted to say that Rinpoche's contribution had been valued etcetera-etcetera-etcetera. But it was clear that this was a sop to cover the embarrassment about the way he called them out on what they were doing.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche Yes . . . that was about the shape of it. I do not want to complain too much though - I must take responsibility for the fact that I was generally quite low key. I could, in all honesty, have done much more to push the issues which I felt were important. I assume I was just too English in my manner, and didn't want to be obnoxious.

Khandro Déchen But now . . . it seems that it is not wise to be polite at conferences. It seems that unless people begin to speak out about the Western Buddhist psychologising of Dharma, many people are going to be seriously mislead.

Q What are your views on 'Western Buddhism' or 'American Buddhism' - the two terms seem to be used interchangeably - it seems important to have some fundamental understanding of what we are seeing here, in terms of Buddhist practice in the West?

Khandro Déchen I feel that it is important to start by saying that Buddhism is not actually designated according to hemisphere, continent, country, or ethnic group. There are simply schools of Buddhism. Those schools do have names, but their names arise in the context of realisation - in the context of enlightened founders. There are, what are commonly known as the Tibetan Buddhist schools: Nyingma, Kagyüd, Sakya, and Gélug. Then there are the other schools such as Ch'an, Zen, and Theravada. People do talk of 'Tibetan Buddhism', but that is not really the correct way to define the Buddhism which exists in Tibet, Bhutan, Sikkim, Ladakh, India, China, Mongolia, and parts of Russia. This form of Buddhism did not begin in Tibet - it began in India and the land of Ögyen.

Q So 'Tibetan Buddhism' is a misnomer.

Khandro Déchen Fundamentally - yes, particularly in the context of this discussion. We use the term Tibetan Buddhism, as does almost everybody - but that is because we're stuck with it through common usage.

Q So it would be better to use another term?

Khandro Déchen No - that is not really necessary - it would just cause confusion. There are many aspects of language with which we have stuck because habit has set in amongst people. The most important point for people to understand, is that the term 'Tibetan Buddhism' was not coined by Tibetans. It was coined by Western people. So, unlike the term 'Western Buddhism' or 'American Buddhism', it doesn't constitute a chauvinistic usage on the part of Tibetans. Tibetans speak of Dharma as Dharma.

Q So we're stuck with 'Tibetan Buddhism' as the term we use to describe the Nine yanas or Hinayana, Mahayana, and Vajrayana?

Khandro Déchen But that does not have to be a problem - we simply need to be able to use the term in the knowledge that Buddhism does not belong to countries or races of people. Buddhism of any school or any tradition is for everyone, everywhere. The problem with calling anything 'Western Buddhism' or 'American Buddhism' - there is no Buddhism which is for one nationality or ethnic group. No one owns Dharma.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche And no one own samsara either.

Khandro Déchen Tibetan samsara, Welsh samsara, English samsara, American samsara, are all samsara. They are fundamentally the same. They are just differently shaded versions of the same five colours of the five elemental neuroses.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche The 'cultural differences' which seem so important to some people are quite illusory at some level. Maybe when one is first interested in exploring Dharma, 'cultural differences' may cause certain anomalies - but to a person seriously involved with Vajrayana and a personal vajra master - 'cultural differences' become irrelevant. Anyone who has seriously studied with a Lama will have come to the understanding that cultural differences are only an issue when one is not clear about the essential nature of what is being communicated.

Khandro Déchen I have noticed for example, that the famous cellist Yoyo Ma does not have obstacles with regard to playing the Bach cello sonatas. He does not have to make these pieces sound Japanese in order to enjoy playing them - and playing them extremely well. Whatever colour car one owns - it still has an engine and wheels. It's not the colour of the car which makes a difference. It's not the body styling of the car, or whether its upholstery is sumptuous or minimalist. We understand the need of Western people to be able to integrate the teachings of Vajrayana into their lives. We also realise that the outer form of Buddhism will change over the next centuries - but 'now' is not really the point in time to be manufacturing something called 'Western Buddhism'.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche 'Western Buddhism' or 'American Buddhism' will not even exist in the future, because lineages of realisation depend upon realisation - and realisation has nothing to do with the process of creating religion by committee, or by conference. That is the death of religion - or to misquote Leonard Cohen: 'Who by conference, and who by preference, who by inference, and who by impertinence - and who, shall we say, is calling?' Those in the West who are the students and disciples of Lamas and Buddhist Teachers of their respective traditions need to be attending to their part in a lengthy process of transition - and that is a transition which is likely to take several hundred years. Then what will appear in that time will probably not have a name like 'Western Buddhism' or 'American Buddhism'. The names of future traditions which may arise in the West will be derived from the enlightened masters who found them. For example - Khandro Déchen and I have no interest in calling ourselves anything other than Nyingma. We come from that tradition. We were educated within that tradition: within the Düd'jom gTér, the Chang gTér, the Khordong gTér, and the Aro gTér - the lineage we have the honour of holding and propagating in the world.

Khandro Déchen There is nothing 'Western' about what we teach. There is nothing 'Eastern' about it either. Dharma is not bound to any hemisphere, racial group, or nationality. Dharma lies beyond such definitions. If there is a Dharma for Western people, then it is a limited thing and therefore not actually Dharma.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche We may speak in contemporary English; and we may use analogies which speak to the British, Americans, and Continental Europeans - but that is not to say that we 'westernise' anything. There is nothing essentially 'Eastern' about Vajrayana which could be 'westernised'. What we teach is simply a lineage of Vajrayana which began in Tibet with the gTérma of Khyungchen Aro Lingma. We should not be in such a hurry here to change things or to manufacture entities on the basis of extremely limited experience. It would be useful for people to understand that the great Lamas of the past never actually decided to found schools or traditions. The schools, traditions, and lineages which came into being, simply came into being through the inspiration of these Lamas. Their disciples simply continued to practice in the example of their Lamas.

Khandro Déchen Why decide to found something different? Why not simply live and practise and teach - and be an example?

Ngak'chang Rinpoche If the example is worth following-if one is actually an inspiration as a human being-if one actually has realisation-if one actually works for the benefit of beings-if one is true to the essence of the teachings and is not at war with one's own training, then . . . a 'tradition' will undoubtedly arise. One does not even have to live so long as to see such a tradition come into being - it is not important. All that is important is the wider concern of maintaining the authentic stream of transmission, and one cannot maintain the authentic stream of transmission by breaking it. We are obviously being critical here, and we would like you to understand that we respect people's good intentions. People are evidently concerned about their own cultures and their own ways of life. We have no argument with that. We have no argument with teaching Dharma in a way which facilitates a genuine understanding. Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche was a Tibetan Buddhism master who pioneered the teaching of Dharma in contemporary English - so where is the need to look any further for 'Western Buddhism' or 'American Buddhism'? We already have it. It's already arrived. What is there to change or integrate, unless one wishes to integrate spiritual materialism? This is the serious question here - and this would seem to be our major concern.

Q It seems that there's a sense in which the traditions to which the advocates of 'Western Buddhism' and 'American Buddhism' originally owed their training, were not enough. Those who are vocal amongst the 'Western Buddhist teachers' seem to combine traditions. Those with Zen training incorporate Vajrayana methodology. Those from a Theravadin background incorporate Dzogchen . . .

Ngak'chang Rinpoche Yes . . . Each Buddhist tradition is sufficient. Each Buddhist tradition is not only sufficient - but more than sufficient. It's impossible for me, ever, to consider ever coming to the end of the Nyingma tradition - or even one lineage within the Nyingma tradition. How could anyone-ever-imagine they could exhaust what is available in their tradition? How could anyone ever find their Buddhist tradition lacking in any way? The idea boggles me. All I can assume is that such people know only a fraction of the extent of their tradition.

Q It seems somehow avaricious . . . somehow, lacking in appreciation to want more than is available in one's own lineage. But more than that, I would imagine that wanting more could only be based on not knowing the full extent of one's lineage?

Khandro Déchen Yes - even the Aro gTér lineage, which is one of the very smallest family lineages within the Nyingma tradition is far more than enough for us. It will take me the rest of my life simply to paint all the yidams of the tradition.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche If anyone feels that they have to cross over into other Buddhist traditions it is probably because they lack a sufficient basis of knowledge and practise in their own tradition.

Q How would that apply to Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche . . . didn't he incorporate some Zen disciplines into his teaching?

Ngak'chang Rinpoche I believe so. But that is another question entirely. Trungpa Rinpoche was a mahasiddha. Trungpa Rinpoche, also, did not incorporate Zen through any lack within his mastery of the Karma Kagyüd and Nyingma Lineages. It was through his friendship with the Zen Master Shunryu Suzuki that he incorporated Zen methods. There is a vast difference between two practitioners sharing aspects of their practises, and two masters who exchange transmission at the level of mastery. Padmasambhava was possibly the world's greatest and most far reaching eclectic-but that does not mean that Khandro Déchen or I would venture into any form of eclecticism.

Q For a Buddha or a mahasiddha to be an eclectic is called 'active compassion'. For others to attempt it is called vanity or megalomania.

Khandro Déchen We have seen photographs of Trungpa Rinpoche at the time when he exchanged transmissions with Shunryu Suzuki, and at that time he shaved his head and wore Zen robes as an outer symbol of having integrated those teachings at the level of realisation.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche People make the same mistake with the idea of Ri'mèd. Ri-mèd means 'without bias' and applies to the Lamas who mastered their own tradition and then proceeded to master other traditions. People like the idea of Ri'mèd because it is non-sectarian. That is good in itself, as there is too much sectarianism in the world - but Ri'mèd is not a path according to the idea of path as different from goal. Ri'mèd is a fruitional path. Ri'mèd is the celebration of the goal through experiencing the path according to other traditions. This was Trungpa Rinpoche's approach to Zen. He mastered his own lineage and then mastered the Zen lineage of Shunryu Suzuki. This is not the same as a persons who have studied and practised, but have run into ideological problems with Buddhism and decide to manufacture a new form of Buddhism which suits their own ideology. That is not Ri-mèd.

Q Right . . . and this brings to the question of conflicting ideologies. It would seem that it is foolish to cross-dress with political philosophy and spirituality. It would seem that one would have to find one's refuge in one or the other. The reason I am asking this, is because we see a lot of material nowadays from all kinds of sources which seem to treat Dharma as if it was unsuitable for Western people by virtue of it's supposed politically anachronistic infrastructure.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche What is it exactly that is being said?

Q Westerns Buddhist teachers are advocating personal experience in preference to reliance on the advice of the teacher or vajra master.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche I see . . . and this 'personal experience' is what exactly?

Q That's just it - it's an amorphous statement.

Khandro Déchen Yes . . . personal experience will lead us in almost any direction. Personal experience is quite valuable in terms of the exploration which leads people to seek out a teacher and a teaching. That is where we have to start - but one cannot call oneself a Buddhist, let alone a Vajrayana Buddhist if one prioritises one's personal experience.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche Quite. And how is one expected to decide what is 'personal experience', as in 'personal experience which leads to realisation', and 'personal neurosis'?

Q Well there the answer would appear to be that one 'depends on the collective wisdom of the sangha' . . .

Q . . . in order to 'diminish the rôle of the Lama'.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche That would be almost amusing if it were not so terribly sad. The 'collective wisdom of the sangha' . . . Well . . . that's a phrase and no mistake. It is not really so simple to discuss such a statement without being offensively dismissive-is it? I mean, dismiss us as Lamas if you choose . . . but that is not really the point. The rôle of Lama cannot be diminished within Vajrayana without terminating Vajrayana as a functional proposition. Without the vajra master there is no Vajrayana.

Khandro Déchen We have some degree of sympathy for those who are attempting to deal with the cultural mismatches which may occur between the cultural forms of Eastern and Western countries - but these are early days and we need to proceed with circumspection. We have great appreciation for the Tibetan Lamas who have made their lineages available. We are obviously concerned with defining cultural aspects of the outer manifestation of Vajrayana as distinct from essential Vajrayana - but not with disrespect for Tibetan culture, or the lineages as presented by the revered Tibetan Lamas who have graciously come to the West.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche We have no desire to remove essential mechanisms from the vehicle. Petrol or should I say 'gasoline' may well be dermatologically harmful, but without it one's Harley Davidson or Vincent Black Lightning would only be capable of rolling down convenient hills. One can strip a vehicle down and expose the engine in the creation of a dragster, but if one removes parts of the engine even the most luxurious sedan will not serve its intended purpose.

Khandro Déchen We are by no means beyond the reach of criticism in terms of their failure to maintain Tibetan cultural forms, but we are respectful of those forms. We are also essentially highly traditional with respect to lineage, transmission, and the fourteen root vows of Vajrayana (with all their attendant commitments). Those who are ignorant of non-liturgical streams of Vajrayana have sometimes passed comment on our 'lack of traditional practice' merely because we represent a Tibetan non-liturgical lineage. But students of ours who have discussed their practice with Tibetan Nyingma ngak'phang Lamas in the East have always been clearly understood as authentic and traditional practitioners.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche That is an important point. We are essentially traditional. And so . . . what else is being said?

Q All manner of things . . . let's see - oh yes, there's the question of the Western Buddhist teachers saying that ' . . . negative experiences with Eastern Teachers of all the Buddhist traditions have created doubt and cynicism.' - and that is why they are taking it upon themselves to advocate changes.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche Really . . . And Charles Manson was not a Western person? And no Western person has ever acted in a reprehensible manner? Any how . . . this is actually a non-sequitur in terms of the rôle of the Lama within Vajrayana. Did Milarépa's 'negative experiences' with Marpa create doubt and cynicism in him? Did this lead him to manufacture an alternative school of Buddhism? I don't think so.

Khandro Déchen Or Naropa, what of his painful experiences?

Ngak'chang Rinpoche And the many other Lamas - in terms of the experiences with their Tsa-wa'i Lamas.

Khandro Déchen Take Ngak'chang Rinpoche, for example. [laughs] He has so many stories of Kyabjé Chhi'mèd Rig'dzin Rinpoche in which he experienced what could have been causes for massive doubt and cynicism - but this doesn't seem to have happened does it? It's as if these people have never studied their lineage histories.

Q Maybe they haven't.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche Maybe not - but then, how can they be teaching others if they're ignorant of the broad scope of the tradition in which they studied. It is really extraordinarily and belligerently sad. I am shocked . . . These are alarmingly immature statements. Maybe such statements have more in common with the political rhetoric with which we have become familiar in the West. We are used to statements which are designed to excite the over-excitable. The political rhetoric which inflames people is often simplistic - and usually scapegoats others: "It's the bad Eastern teachers! They're the one who are to blame! Let's start a movement against them and then we'll all be happy with our miserable puerile little neuroses. We can be safe and secure in our cocoons of dualism." This is grim . . . It is always the same when we blame others for our own pain. We have to own our own pain. We cannot blame mummy and daddy for ever. We have to grow up. History has shown us this example any times - once 'the bad people' have been done away with-we simply turn on each other. There is no end to pain through this means, and no possibility of realisation either. These ideas are all very well and good coming from career politicians, but coming from anyone who has taken vows, such statements are tragic. And the people who are making these statement expect to be taken seriously?

Q Some people are taking them seriously . . . yes.

Khandro Déchen If one takes vows and breaks them, how can one be expected to be taken seriously? It's one thing - to be critical of a person's behaviour, but that should not lead a serious practitioner to question the basic structure of the Vajrayana. But as Rinpoche said: 'this is a non-sequitur in terms of the rôle of the Lama within Vajrayana.'. Anyone who approaches the Vajrayana, has to do so as an adult - not as a child. A child can make mistakes, but one does not approach the vajra master as a child. One approaches the vajra master as an adult.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche An adult should be capable of making adult decisions. If one finds that one is not an adult, then one should look to a process of gaining maturity, rather than pretending to be an adult and making a fuss about the fact of accepting adult responsibility.

Q It would be bizarre, for example, for someone to enter the Marine Corps and end up crying about it.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche [laughs] A useful analogy - but one would have to take it further. One would have to continue the story. One would have to go to the newspapers, or even start one's own website, in order to cry publicly: "I joined the Marines and there were big mean spiteful fellows there who made me do things that I didn't particularly want to do." What would one think about a person who spoke in that way? Wouldn't one ask: "Why did you join the Marines in the first place? Didn't you read the material? Didn't you have any idea what the training would involve?" We are only looking at these questions of 'negative experiences with teachers' because we live in a society which deifies the victim. Victims have become our heroes and heroines, and that is a tragic statement. We used to have real heroes and real heroines and now we glorify professional victims.

Q So really - one should understand the rôle of the vajra master very carefully before entering into vajra relationship.

Khandro Déchen Certainly. All the traditional texts which speak of the ultimate value of the vajra master, also speak of the need to check that the teacher really is the vajra master. There is an excellent book out now, book now, called 'The Teacher-Student Relationship' by Jamgön Kongtrül the Great - translated by Ron Garry. If one wishes to know how to check the vajra master, then this would be the text to read. But of course, in order to be able to check the vajra master . . . one does actually need to enter into serious practice. How can one check someone when one has little or no meditative experience?

Ngak'chang Rinpoche And having entered vajra commitment with the vajra master on the basis of real practice experience - there is no negative experience.

Khandro Déchen There may well be discomfort at times, but that is natural. Why should there not be discomfort and confusion when one has set out upon the path of destroying dualism? How can one imagine one's dualism can be undermined and one's neuroses transformed without one's identity being challenged?

Ngak'chang Rinpoche Dualism is our clinging to reference points which substantiate us as solid, permanent, separate, continuous, and defined. Dualism is our rejection of anything which undermines our sense of being solid, permanent, separate, continuous, and defined. If we let the vajra master into our lives, he or she will definitely assault our reference points.

Q If you don't want your reference points assaulted, then you shouldn't invite the vajra master into your life.

Khandro Déchen Quite. The vajra masters of any lineage of Vajrayana would be in breech of samaya if they did not abuse duality and our addiction to duality - so why all this non-sense about 'negative experiences' in the context of the vajra master?

Ngak'chang Rinpoche There can only be abuse in a system which recognises abuse. From the point of view of Western medical science, smoking looks like abuse (particularly if one forces others to partake of secondary smoking[1]) - yet within the 'freedom culture', it is an abuse to prevent people from smoking. Within Vajrayana culture, spiritual materialism looks like abuse, yet within Western Buddhist culture it looks like a positive step. Within Vajrayana culture the delusion of personal subjectivity looks like abuse, yet within Western Buddhism the dualism of 'personal experience' looks like freedom.

Q . . . and the dualism of 'Maitreya Buddha as the sangha' shines forth like a ray of hope . . .

Khandro Déchen 'Maitreya Buddha as the sangha'? [laughs]. What do you mean?

Q It is boldly asserted on one Western Buddhist website 'the coming Buddha Maitreya will be the sangha, rather than another patriarchal Eastern boss for another 2500 years.'

Khandro Déchen That is a sad and confused comment . . . It's not even particularly rational. This can only mean that the person quoted feels that a large enough group of people are able to add up to one enlightened being . . . [laughs] as if realisation were cumulative. The person who said this must be quite young and new to Buddhism?

Q No-he's middle aged and has completed either one or two three year retreats.

Khandro Déchen I don't know what to say . . . maybe we will leave that one alone. I don't think that it requires a comment.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche Indeed. So . . . as to the vajra master -Vajrayana does not recognise limitations in terms of the vajra master - and those who pass through the immigration control of the realm of Vajrayana, need to be sensible of its culture. This is not to say that the vajra master is everyone's vajra master whether they have entered vajra commitment or not. The vajra master is only the vajra master for the vajra-disciple - and the vajra disciples have to know that they are vajra disciples. Once one becomes a vajra disciple - one cannot turn back.

Q Right - that's why it is said that one becomes like a snake in a bamboo tube.

Khandro Déchen Yes - exactly. So be careful which tube you enter. The texts state this over and over again. This warning is over a thousand years old-but there is no way of making it easy through applying some sort of rule. One can only ascertain the qualities of a teacher through intensive practice.

Q That reminds me of another issue the Western Buddhist teachers have raised, they want to establish generalised criteria as to the qualification of teachers.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche That's interesting . . . It would seem that those who have this idea of wanting to diminish the rôle of the Lama, merely want to emphasise themselves as the arbiters of what is to be. This is actually vaguely ridiculous inasmuch as it's patently little more than a bid for self-importance.

Q They seem to be saying: "We don't want anyone's authority but our own - so that we can lay down the rules and be the new authorities."

Q Right - that's a wonderful choice isn't it: help us depose the King or Queen and we'll be your fascist dictators instead.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche Well . . . that's how it appears. But let's say they had some good motivation . . . We should not always immediately suppose that people are entirely self-serving. I mean-there are certainly people who are 'teaching' - people who are translating Vajrayana into 'new-age' easily digestible baby food . . .

Q I read one Western Buddhist teacher's advertisement which read 'Dzogchen is more Fun'-I mean . . . more fun than what? More fun than belly dancing?

Q Yes . . . I read a blurb of some Western Buddhist teaching scheduled in Seattle. The text ran:

"We've been at the party too long. We just wanted some fun but now we're trying way too hard. There's no one else to be but ourselves, and there's nowhere else to go but where we are. This is the teaching of the Buddhas. When are you coming home?"

Q And this . . . is the teaching of the Buddhas?

Q Was this serious?

Q Yes - it supposed to be serious as far as I could tell.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche Right . . . yes . . . . Maybe, it would be appropriate for those who gave teachings to be knowledgeable-to have the requisite experience-to have an authentic lineage-to have authentic experience.

Q But who tests that? Who makes the rules?

Khandro Déchen It's an individual choice. Whether someone sees someone else as a teacher is none of any one else's concern.

Q But it would appear that the Western Buddhist teachers are trying to make this choice into a group decision to be anti-teacher, and particularly anti-vajra master.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche This is nonsensical from any Buddhist standpoint - a group cannot make decisions as to who is realised and who is not. The realisation of a Lama cannot be voted into credibility by a committee. . The realisation of a Lama cannot be voted out of credibility by a committee either.

Q Group members will always have their differences anyway - so how can judgements be made?

Q And if there's disagreement in a group - how can a group know what the realisation and experience of a Lama are?

Q Yes . . . If they are not all of one mind it means that they lack the realisation to judge realisation.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche [laughs] Maybe they are all of one mind, and maybe that's the problem . . . maybe there's no real freedom there. If there were real freedom then they would be happy for free human beings to make free choices about who they chose to regard as a teacher. Only the individual can ask someone to be their Lama and be accepted as a disciple by that Lama. No one calls themselves a teacher - that designation comes from the students and disciples. It can only be the disciple who makes the decision to call someone their teacher - but once one accepts a Lama (and is accepted by a Lama) within a Vajrayana lineage, there can no longer be doubt and cynicism. Everything at that point must be integrated into the path. One must continually encourage pure-vision with regard to the person one has chosen as a vajra master.

Q So, no one can issue dictates as to who is a teacher for someone else - in terms of external criteria.

Khandro Déchen Well . . . there are certain criteria which are traditionally applied . . . One certainly needs to have completed the two 'Lama Khorlos' or 'Teacher Cycles'.

Q They're the cycles of 'study and practice' and 'retreat and accomplishment'?

Khandro Déchen Yes - that's right. A person can't merely be the student of a teacher for a few years and read a few books and then decide that they're a teacher. But that does happen, and has happened.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche Yes - one certainly needs sufficient neurons to achieve a synapse. One requires a lineage - an if one disparages one's lineage then one has nothing to offer. If one disparages one's teacher - one breaks the root vows of Vajrayana. So there have to be criteria - but these criteria are already well established in terms of the fourteen root vows of Vajrayana.

Q Dung-sé Thrinlé Norbu Rinpoche was interviewed by Tricycle magazine in the Fall. The interview was called 'Words for the West'.

Khandro Déchen Yes - as if Dungsé Thrinlé Norbu Rinpoche was addressing Western people en masse -rather than 'Western Buddhist teachers'.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche Yes . . . It was a journalistically adroit presentation . . . a piece of manipulative propaganda.

Q . . . with 'exposé style' photograph-strip pictures which incensed many Vajrayana practitioners.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche Yes . . . interestingly enough a series of photographs of me were taken in the Fall of 1998 when I was teaching at Pema Osel Ling, and an unusual number of these pictures show me looking really angry [laughs]. I look viciously deranged [laughs]. I was so surprised by these pictures that I trimmed and mounted them up in the same 'exposé' style as Tricycle magazine employed for the supposedly 'angry' pictures of Dungsé Thrinlé Norbu Rinpoche.

Q It is clear that photographs can lie . . .

Q Many of those Vajrayana practitioners who have also seen the edited version in Tricycle magazine are as concerned as you are by the style in which it was presented. A number of their letters of complaint to the editor appeared on internet forums, and we sent our own to letters to tricycle - but none were published.

Q That's why we wanted to interview you about this subject. We were all deeply saddened by this scurrilous misuse of Dung-sé Thrinlé Norbu Rinpoche's words by Tricycle magazine. Did you see it?

Khandro Déchen Yes. The interview was entitled 'Words for the West' and it presented Dung-sé Thrinlé Norbu Rinpoche in a way which made it seem that he had antagonistic view of Western Buddhists . . .

Ngak'chang Rinpoche . . . which his is distinctly not the case. We have a certain familiarity with journalism and journalists, and the way in which they like to re-create reality according to their own ideas of what makes 'good copy'.

Q The journalistic tendency toward sensationalism?

Ngak'chang Rinpoche Yes, but what has been perpetrated here however is of a far more deceitful and manipulative order. Dung-sé Thrinlé Norbu Rinpoche's criticisms were all directly levelled at spokespersons actively involved with the creation of 'Western Buddhism' and 'American Buddhism', and with the attempted 'democratisation' of Vajrayana. His comments were not 'Words for the West' but words for those who use the word 'West' to identify their psycho-egalitarian revamping of the Dharmas of different traditions.

Khandro Déchen Dung-sé Thrinlé Norbu Rinpoche is far from being critical of Western teachers of Buddhism. He has, in fact, been highly supportive of those Western Lamas associated with Tharchin Rinpoche and HE Chag'düd Tulku Rinpoche.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche A well known quote from Dung-sé Thrinlé Norbu Rinpoche illuminates the way he sees the situation. He was addresses the students of the West Coast Nyingma Lamas at Tharchin Rinpoche's land about the fact that they should not discriminate between Tibetan and Western people in terms of how they received their teaching. After enumerating the excellent qualities of the Western Lamas present, Dung-sé Thrinlé Norbu Rinpoche said: "What is the difference between a Tibetan Lama and a Western Lama? The Difference is that the Tibetan Lama has a flat nose and the Western Lama has a Rocky Mountain nose."

I hope that we will see a return to authentic practice, and real friendship amongst practitioners . . . I realise that we have made some strong statements here, but we have had no choice under the circumstances - but whether this is the lion's roar of Seng-gé Dradog or the chicken's squawk of Ngakpa Chögyam will have to be left to the insight of our others.

Khandro Déchen As we said before - Rinpoche and I would rather not involve ourselves in critical comment, but we feel that it's time to show our cards.

Ngak'chang Rinpoche So here they are. Here are our cards: the Kuntuzangpo Ralpa Nakpo mDo (Kuntu bZang po ral pa nag po'i mDo) states:

In the degenerate era, when red faced beasts have ruined the Vajrayana teachings, those with white skirts will benefit sentient beings! Thence arises the need for longhaired practitioners! A carefree body donning a white skirt and head adorned with braids - this is the sky-like appearance of the trül-ku! Carefree uncut hair - this is the sky-like appearance of the long-ku! Carefree view of pure Mind - this is the chö-ku. Achieving the three spheres of being within oneself - this is the practice of Dzogchen!'

Although we are not good or even adequate examples of white-skirted long haired practitioners of the gö-kar chang-lo'i dé (gos dKar lCang lo'i sDe) - we can at least speak out against red faced beasts who attempt to ruin the opportunity of Vajrayana for others.

[1] This is more particularly the case for those who abuse their children by inflicting tobacco smoke on them.